Mikey Weinstein & Ted Haggard Discuss Religious Freedom

Rob Brendle, associate pastor of New Life Church, sent me the following this evening. It is an email exchange between the man who recently filed the latest religious discrimination lawsuit against the Air Force Academy, Mikey Weinstein, and NAE President Ted Haggard.

This whole exchange is unedited; Weinstein's strange email writing style reportedly mimics his frenetic real-life speech. Several things pop out as interesting here. Haggard opens with an obvious poke, and then speaks in what comes off as written talking points.

Does Mr. Weinstein have the right to have a court decide if the AFA is violating constitutionally based rights regarding separation of church and state? I think he does, and any speculation that these charges are bogus are probably intellectual-masturbation sessions better left to a court. Perhaps Fox News can report and then you can decide. ;)

Why is this bigger news than the religious right's "War on Science" that is being waged in science classrooms across the country? Some evangelicals are always going to witness, whether they are teachers or fellow students. That is what they are supposed to do.

Finally, can anyone guess why Haggard spends so much time trying to build alliances with the Jews worldwide? I have more than a hunch. They of course really are all about spreading good will to their fellow man, but the evangelicals are forming an alliance to fight a global war against Islam in the near future. Am I wrong about that? I don't think so. I've discussed this topic at length with senior New Lifers. Rob Brendle told me that he believes that France, Spain and Sweden are already hopelessly lost and shall become Islamic Republics within 15 years. He says that the rest of Europe may very well soon follow and that we are at risk of the same right here. Ted Haggard himself has been quoted as saying, “My fear, is that my children will grow up in an Islamic state.” They fear the spread of Islam right here in America and view it as a serious threat to our freedom. Are they wrong? Who knows. I think our rampant pop-culture would replace any hard-core religious values with a lighter and easier Pepsi style "gotta-have-it-now" type of materialistic faith. I bet SUV owning Islamic folks wouldn't want to blow themselves up any more than SUV owning evangelicals.

It seems that the evangelicals fear Islam for the same reasons that I fear the Christian far right.

Complete email exchange below.
_____________________________

12/28/95 7:00 PM

MIkey,

I thought you would get a kick out of one of the jokes that are being circulated in the Christian community in response to the debate about additional government supervision of religious expression in the military.

God bless,

Pastor Ted Haggard
Colorado Springs, CO

"Please accept with no obligation, implied or implicit, our best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low-stress, non-addictive, gender-neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasion and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all. We also wish you a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2006, but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make America great. Not to imply that America is necessarily greater than any other country nor the only America in the Western Hemisphere. And without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of the wishee. By accepting these greetings you are accepting these terms. This greeting is subject to clarification or withdrawal. It is freely transferable with no alteration to the original greeting. It implies no promise by the wisher to actually implement any of the wishes for herself or himself or others, and is void where prohibited by law and is revocable at the sole discretion of the wisher. This wish is warranted to perform as expected within the usual application of good tidings for a period of one year or until the issuance of a subsequent holiday greeting, whichever comes first, and warranty is limited to replacement of this wish or issuance of a new wish at the sole discretion of the wisher."

12/28/05 11:23 PM

.....Ted....looooong time no chat, bro............sincerely hope you and yours are all well........a real shame we are at war with each other.........the press tells me you say some "interesting" things about me........others (non-press) tell me the same.......apparently, the night has a thousand eyes and ears......so does the day......no worries, Ted.......par for the course in this Constitutional conflagration, eh??!!.........I keep waiting for you to invite me up to your New Life enclave to finally give MY side of this bloody thing to your dominionist pals and followers.........you provide the security/bodyguards and I'll bring "the rest of the story" as Paul Harvey might say............don't fret, I'll not be holding my breath for the invite...............notwithstanding the forgoing, please DO have a wonderful New Year.............2006 WILL be a magnificent year for the United States Constitution................I promise you that, my brother..................shalom, Mikey

12/29/95 8:35 AM

Mikey,

No worries. We've fought these battles before. In some nations, under the banner of freedom of religion, they limit religious speech to anyone but the already converted. To limit freedom of religion, speech or the press under the guise of freedom of religion, speech or the press happens often. That's what we're facing with your efforts. But I'm confident authentic freedom will prevail. I think I have a higher view of adults to manage freedom of religion, speech, and the press. I don't believe government supervision is necessary except in extreme cases (Christian or Islamic religious speech used to incite violence, etc.), and that in fact freedom and goodness increase in any society that takes the risk of embracing first amendment ideas. No doubt, some would rather have government supervised religion, press, and speech, because it does provide comfort to those who think government supervision of expression is beneficial to their cause, but I think we've proven world-wide that, in most cases, individual freedom is better than increased government regulation.

My concern, though, as I expressed on the phone to you, is not exclusively the American issue, but the global struggle for the advancement of representative government, civil liberties, and fundamental freedom. It is my view that both Christian and Jewish leaders would be wise to unite together to protect those who are threatened with extermination and death. If Jewish and Christian believers in America remain fractured, we're going to lose too much world-wide. Instead, Christian and Jewish believers need to become friends and work together. This note came in my mail this morning:

Though many of them have only appeared on page two of local Jewish papers, while completely omitted from the regular press, a wave of anti-Jewish attacks continues around the globe. Here are just a few examples of incidents in recent weeks.

In Australia the Executive Council of Australian Jewry's annual report points to Jews there increasingly being verbally abused and physically attacked. "There were 332 incidents of anti-Jewish assault, vandalism, intimidation and harassment in the past 12 months," according to the report. Among the incidents reported were arson attacks on synagogues, vandalism and Nazi graffiti on property, assaults on Jewish men by unknown assailants, and vandalism of Jewish schools and synagogues.

A 16-year-old British Jew was attacked with a knife in Manchester last week. His ear was slashed and his assailant shouted anti-Jewish slogans as he attacked him. A local rabbi chased the attacker.

A French court sentenced a 25-year-old man last week to three years in jail for vandalizing a cemetery with Nazi graffiti and anti-Jewish slogans.

Three teens in Swampscott, Massachusetts have been charged with hate crimes after burning a van belonging to a local Chabad-Lubavitch synagogue. The same Chabad synagogue was broken into in October and anti-Jewish graffiti was scrawls inside the sanctuary.

A large menorah was torn down and stomped to pieces by a group of vandals at a South Philadelphia community center last week. The community says it will put up a newer and brighter Chanukah menorah to replace it.

An anti-Jewish TV program called "America is a Changing Country” was aired on cable access television in Maryland. The program, produced by National Alliance neo-Nazi group, blames, “Jewish media” for urban decay and the denigration of "Aryan values."

These types of issues deeply alarm me and I think they need to be addressed by innovative men like yourself. It's a mistake to juxtapose Jewish and Christian believers in America. No doubt, it's financially profitable for groups leading both sides. I think, though, it would be best if leaders stood hand in hand, heart to heart, protecting peoples lives.

I don't want to get into an e-mail discussion. I just wanted you to know that I'm constantly involved in trying to protect Israel and other international Jewish interests, and find it difficult to defend Jewish causes around the world and, at the same time, have men like yourself trying to use increased government regulation to limit freedom here at home.

God bless,

Pastor Ted Haggard
Colorado Springs, CO

12/29/05 9:07 AM

...."men like yourself"??...."your efforts"??......Ted, you have absolutely NO idea as to what "religious freedom" actually means, apparently!!..........I'll, too, NOT do this via e-mail, but suffice it to say that I WHOLEHEARTEDLY reject en toto your patently ridiculous assertions that me and mine are somehow "hurting" your feelings and trying to restrict YOUR religious freedoms.......your baseless whining and illogical and twisted view of the First Amendmant (and utterly warped view of the other relevant and germane parts of our Constitution-see Clause 3 of Artivle 6-!) is not remotely surprising as, without a scintilla of a doubt, you subscribe to the tortured, pedestrian tripe that this wonderful nation's longstanding "tolerance of diversity" is nothing more than evincing "INtolerance of the majority".............how DARE you try to assert that me and my supporters are making it MORE difficult for YOU to fight "global antisemitism!!!!!.........("with friends like you, eh??!!)....in other words, you exhibit a boundless hubris in trying to posit that, because we take a firm stand against you and yours, we are, thus, endangering YOUR noble national and international efforts to "protect" me, my family, my people and what??...all of the rest of world Jewry too!!??.......that unbridled, sanctimoniously triumphant and callous position is nothing less than pitiably shameful, Ted....and you KNOW it, too!!!....shame, Ted, SHAME on you for that!!!.......pleaee THINK what you just said to me!!..........that is quite beneathe contempt.....even for YOU!!!....."we" don't depend upon ol' Ted to be our worldwide protector.....sigh...perhaps someday you'll see me as something other than solely as a Jew.......as to the efforts of me and the new Foundation you ridicule, sorry, you'd best get used to us, we're NOT going away.....not EVER!!!......you wanna continue this, I suggest ya call me cell [removed]XXX-XXX-XXXX home [removed]XXX-XXX-XXXX be happy to talk......Mikey

12/29/05 9:15 AM

Mikey,

Relax. Take a deep breath.

Pastor Ted Haggard
Colorado Springs, CO

12/29/05 9:55 AM

........Ted, thx for your apparent personal concern....but take heart, actually, I am always "realxed" and always take breaths in accordance with my need for it....nevertheless, it would sadly seem, Ted, that you and I and our respective causes are not even close enough to be considered "two ships passing in the night" but, rather, we are at best "2 starships passing on opposite ends of the universe and in separate space-time continuums"......which is why, I suppose, we fight each other.....you do not "get" me or mine at all (or are engaging in willful ignorance in not so "getting") but I assure you that we most CERTAINLY DO "get" you and yours which is why I'm battling in Federal court right now..........hmmmmmmmm??......given this recent e-mail discourse between us, I can only imagine the mischief that might be wrought if we actually TALKED on the phone, perish the thought, eh??.......Mikey

12/29/05 11:45 AM

Mikey,

Your last e-mail communicates some things that I don't believe are true. I don't believe Evangelical Christians and Jewish believers are enemies as you imply. I don't believe Evangelical support for Jewish causes are either unnecessary, egotistical or self-centered. No doubt, it will take more people than just Evangelicals to protect Jewish people from anti-semitism, but we need to do our part. I've been in Evangelical churches all my life and I've never heard any teaching other than support for Jewish people and interests, and respected Jewish leaders have reinforced this view. Ariel Sharon, Benjamin Netanyahu, Avraham Hirchson, Marvin Hier, Danny Ayalon and many other highly recognized Jewish leaders have all communicated with me about the positive and vital role evangelicals have in the support of the causes to which they have dedicated their lives. Your note communicates the opposite.

I represent the largest group of Evangelicals in America, and the evidence suggests that Evangelicals are the friends of Jewish individuals and interests, not enemies. If these and other Jewish leaders have evaluated the evidence correctly and have said what they believe to be true, then the majority of Evangelicals are friends, not foes.

I believe it's best for Jewish and Evangelical Christians to work together. I think the cause of freedom, civil liberties, the principles outlined in the first amendment, and the protection of all people can be advanced if we work together. Freedom of speech, the press, and religion are fundamental to the advancement of civilization. Government supervision of any of these hasn't proven beneficial anywhere in the world. Mikey, I think you're falling into a trap of believing that the use of government regulation to restrain opinions you disagree with will be beneficial. We are a pluralistic society that needs to embrace differences, not squelch them. In order for this to work, we need to live in an atmosphere of mutual respect. These are the ideals for which I am an advocate, while you are working to muzzle freedom of expression under the guise of separation of church and state. I am a strong supporter of the establishment clause, but it can be easily misconstrued. I think you might not have as many enemies as you imagine. Regardless, this will in fact be a great year for the constitution.

God bless,

Pastor Ted Haggard
Colorado Springs, CO

Comments

[Andy Meyer]

Ted,

Before I begin, let me take a moment to let you know who I am. I am Andy Meyer, College student, Healthcare professional, Member of the Boy Scouts of America, Board member for the Tourette chapter of New Mexico, a in-direct family member of the Weinstein family but most important a Christian. As a Christian, I am welcome anytime in the Weinstein home, I am free to come and go as I please. Mikey is a brother to me. I am not writing this letter to defend him, he is doing a very good job on his own. I also am not writing on behalf of any of my organizations that I am affiliated with, I just wanted you to know that I am an educated person and extremely disappointed by your actions.

I am writing this to you as I am utterly saddened, ashamed and embarrassed by your unconscionable treatment and endorsement of "your" version of "your" Christian faith. I have been following this debacle since it started over a year ago. I watched you on Hard Ball with Chris Matthews a few months ago. I have read your comments in several newspapers and online articles over the last several months. Your last malicious attack was e-mailing back and fourth and then sending the private email to the press: was plain and simply, blatantly, anti-Semitic, hideously discriminatory, and complete violation of everything Christianity stands for, and to me is astonishingly beyond the pale!

As a Pastor, your job is to set the comprehensive example to all humans at all times. You have totally failed your church, and all Christians and you do not speak for me and many of my Christian friends. One of the great lessons that I learned from being a Christian, and the great group of Christians everywhere, is that everyone matters, everyone has a voice irrespective of their religious faith, race, national origin or political affiliation. It’s a terrible shame and a horrific travesty that you are torturing and twisting what Mikey is saying and what the Constitution states!

I think if you search deep down in your heart, you will find that what Mikey Weinstein is fighting for is simply that people follow the Constitution. I am going to send you a rubber bracelet that has written on it WWJD? The acronym stands for "What would Jesus do?" I think you need to give that a lot of thought. I suggest you get down on your knees and ask our dear Lord for forgiveness, You said you were "sending out an olive branch" well that olive went rotten the second you called the press and posted it online. You should be ashamed and I am ashamed for you. You DO NOT speak for all Christians and I want to apologize to the Jewish Community everywhere as you have insulted them by insulting Mikey.

I hope you read Corinthians 2 8:21: 21For we are taking pains to do what is right, not only in the eyes of the Lord but also in the eyes of men.

I will pray for you!!

Shalom,

Andy Meyer

Christian

PS: To save you time, I already sent this letter to the Colorado Springs and Albuquerque Newspapers and they have my permission to print my letter!

[Stan Wastren]

Anti-Semitic? Publicizing an e-mail exchange? Anti-Semitic?

All your shouting, screaming and labeling does only one thing--helps all of us see right through you (as if the fact that you're related to Mikey Weinstein doesn't make it obvious enough).

Ted H. speaks for me. If any sane person looks at his emails contrasted with Mikey's, it's obvious which man has ideas, and expresses them calmly and rationally and reasonably. In the other corner, ladies and gentlemen, say hello to loquacious hysteria.

[Grinth]

When you are actively trying to convert anyone who is not an evangelical christian (including the Jewish community) it is a little ridiculous to claim "I've been in Evangelical churches all my life and I've never heard any teaching other than support for Jewish people and interests".

And for someone like Rob, who loves to ridicule "liberals" for being overly paranoid, to suggest France and Sweden are on the doorstep of becoming an Islamic nation is simply laughable...

[Daryn Yassin]

Ted Haggard, obviously you are too self absorbed in your "evangelical" amway pyramid scam to understand pastoral care or to respect the privacy of others. Your claim to be a Christian leader rings similar to the claims made by Jim Jones to his flock. If there is a second coming of Christ, Ted, I suspect he will call on you first to atone for your hypocritical claims to be a Christian. Your actions are far from what Christ taught on his Sermon on the Mount. Shame on you, Mr Haggard. Shame on you.

[Sansabelt Savior]

Not only is separation of church and state well-founded historically, it's one of those rare genuinely good ideas in government. Keeping government from exercising religious preference, from endorsing religion (whether sectarian or otherwise) in a de facto sense, works to the benefit of both government and religious institution.

If fundies are really so concerned about reduced church attendance in Europe, they ought to learn from the mistakes of the European republics which have almost universally failed to provide true separation between church and state. In Europe, where official churches and religions abound, what has resulted is a complete loss of credibility for religious institutions.

That Ted Haggard is a purely political creature is at least partly obscured by the separation of church and state that he so despises. A man of vision would understand that this is a battle he's better off losing. On the other hand, maybe he does get that, and this is another in a long line of fights that the religious right has affected for the benefit of fundraising. Regardless, Haggard is on the wrong side of what is a uniquely American principle, which has served this country very well when Americans have had the courage and discipline to exercise the kind of mutual self-respect and let live attitude that underlie all of our freedoms.

If you fail to respect the right of your fellow man to be left alone, to be trusted with his own judgement in a matter as personal as spirituality, how can you claim to represent any kind of American principle?

[Andy Meyer]

Stan,

Please pay attention, apparently like Ted; you only see certain parts of my email. I said “in-direct family member of Mikey”, not though blood but through love of friends, WOW a Christian loving a Jewish person, perish the thought!! It seems to me the ONLY person making it a Jewish VS Christians problem is Ted Haggard and some of his e-mail listing people who can't see the forest through the trees. I will not use big words now since I do not want you to perceive me as "All your shouting, screaming and labeling does only one thing--helps all of us see right through you (as if the fact that you're related to Mikey Weinstein doesn't make it obvious enough)." This is becoming my own issue against people who are Christians like myself who are too blind to see what Mikey AND OTHERS are trying to do.

The other 5 posters who replied made sense and I respect their opinion but you are attacking me, and you're a Christian? I went to your web blog and I see your statements and you appear to be a Christian however you must be wearing venetians blinds because you are not seeing the whole picture here Stan. This has never been about Jews vs. any religion. Here is the Amendment of the bill of rights:

Amendment I

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

This means that the 1st Amendment guaranteed protection of such substantive rights as freedom of speech, press, assembly and petition, while providing COMPLETE RELIGIOUS FREEDOM AND SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. This seems pretty clear to me Stan, the Air Force Academy or any Government Institution can not force, push, coheres, beg, plead any religion on anyone at anytime. Why is this so hard to understand???

Stan, I wish you a Happy New Year!

Your brother in Christ,

Andy Meyer

[Sarah]

Andy,
You said that you respected "The other 5 posters who replied," because they made sense and you didn't respect Stan's reply because he was criticizing you, right? Well, not to seem critical or anything but the other 5 replies were in agreement with you, so I could see how you could easily respect them; and also when you were criticizing Ted I'm sure that wasn't "Unchristian," was it?! A parting thought, I thought this case was about evangelizing, which falls under the heading of freedom of speech.
Sarah.....a Christian

[Nate]

Sweden has 100,000 muslims (mostly from Turkey) out of a population of 9,000,000 - 1% is hardly an imminent threat to a nation that claims 78% of their population as members of the Church of Sweden.

Spain has 800,000 muslims in their population of 43,000,000, almost 2%.

France is certainly more Muslim - constituting somewhere between 5% to 10% of their total 63,000,000 population.

Although the source is suspect since there is no co-ordinated census of the world, Christianity appears to be the largest religion in the world (at about 2.1 billion adherents), Islam the second largest (at 1 billion), NON-religious (at 1 billion), followed by Hinduism (at 900K), and then all others for the other 3 billion folks. Why would Ted be so worried about just Islam when clearly the non-religious are as much (or more) of a threat? If the non-religious of the world make a pact with the Hindus, look out!

(sources: Wikipedia, CIA factbook)

[Andy Meyer]

Sarah,

Thank you for pointing out that the other five post were in support of my position. I never looked at it that way. If you see it that way then many more people are out there in support of this cause.

Have a great day!

Andy

[Buddy]

Dateline, late 2006:

SSGT Smith, SSGT Jones, and Corporal Anderson are wounded, lying in a foxhole somewhere in Iraq. They are surrounded by insurgents, who are closing in. It looks hopeless.

Corp Anderson: "Sarge, I'm scared."
SSGT Jones: "So am I - the radio is dead"
SSGT Smith: "If you believe in anyone or anything, this might be a good time to pray for a miracle"
Corp Anderson: "I've never been one for praying"
SSGT Jones: "I'm going to pray - it's the Lord's Prayer - You can join in if you like"

(All three soldiers pray together; within minutes of finishing, the sky lights up around them as US planes strike, wiping out the insurgent attack)

Skip to one week later - SSGT Jones is lying in the hospital, recouperating from his wounds. He is visited by his commander)

COL Brown: "How are you feeling"?
SSGT Jones: "I'm ok sir. How is Corp Anderson? It was pretty tough for him out there"
COL Brown: "He'll be fine. He feels it was a miracle that you all survived"
SSGT Jones: "Yes Sir; those planes showed up just after we prayed"
COL Brown: "So I heard. I'm afraid I have some bad news"
SSGT Jones: "Sir"?
COL Brown: "Apparently your story was picked up by the press, and some lawyer in New Mexico heard about it. He has called General Williams, and as a result, you are being charged under the Uniform Code of Military Justice with illegally prostelyzing to Corp Anderson. As the ranking NCO you should have known better. Your trial will start as soon as you get out of the hospital."

It saddens me to think that some day soon, this could be reality.

Buddy

[Andy Meyer]

Buddy,

Touching story, brought tears to my eyes, there is one thing that you said which is so true and here it is my friend:

SSGT Jones: "I'm going to pray - it's the Lord's Prayer - You can join in if you like"]

Now had it been like this:

SSGT Jones "I am going to pray and I order you to pray with me and you have no choice and in fact what I say, how I say and when I say, thats a direct order!!

Your right, you would have a lawyer from many states bringing up lawsuites!

Best Wishes,

Andy Meyer

[Non-Prophet]

Rob Brendle told me that the Islamic people in Europe are breeding furiously. He said something like, I probably have this only slightly wrong, 90% of kids born in France are born into Islamic families. He also said that once the Islamic folks figure out that they can get into this country they will, just like the Mexicans. He didn't mark any of that as confidential.

[Non-Prophet]

Re-reading that last bit I think it might look like I was saying that Rob is racist against Mexicans. I didn't mean that and he didn't come off as such when he spoke.

This is interesting... Andrew Mondy, another associate pastor at New Life, wrote a piece titled, "True Islam IS Radical Islam" back in August on his blog. It was a two parter. It still shows up in a google search for "mondy true islam is radical" but the piece appears to have been erased. Part 1 was here. Andrew, if you still read this blog could you tell us what happened to it? My un-enlightened speculation is that your employer asked you to nix it.

[Buddy]

Andy,

Let me assume that you and I are in agreement - that in my scenario, we both agree that any leap to persecution would be inappropriate. I would hope that reasonable people can agree on this, although I don't know Mikey's heart, and can't speak for him. However, my fear is that this is the dark path we are starting to travel.

One the other hand, I think that most reasonable people, including people of all faiths, would see YOUR version of SSGT Smith as a step out of bounds, and an unlawful order. In this case, military commanders have several options to address this situation, from verbal/written reprimands, to Article 15 punishment, to General Court Martial. The military chain of command would address this situation - No need for lawsuits here.

Having followed the AFA controversy thus far, I have not read of the kind of scenario (verbatim) you describe.

Have a wonderful new year,

Buddy

[Andy Meyer]

Buddy,

Thank you for your reply. With all due respect I do not think you have been following this Air Force Controversy near as close as I have. I was aware of the situation LONG before it hit any press or any internet blog site. In fact, I was aware of this situation the day it happened to someone one very close to me.

I stated earlier that I am not going to defend Mikey as I have no need too, not that I won't if the need ever arose. This is becoming my own cause against people like Ted Haggard who claim to be Christians and then spit on people. I really believe with every fiber of my body that when Ted sent the personal private e-mail exchange between Mikey and himself to the press and posted it here and who knows where else, that was un-ethical and very much unchristian. Let me finish my thoughts about Mikey though.... I truly to not know if he even reads these posts, I doubt there worth his time. You said you do not know Mikey's heart and that's understandable. I do know his heart and the cadet who was "mistreated" and they have the biggest hearts I ever met. Mikey tried to deal with the school for months as a parent. Mikey loves the Air Force Academy second to his family. The school didn't see it as a problem, it wasn’t until other cadets of different religions came to Mikey seeking help that he even considered going to a public forum.

Buddy, you seem smart, very smart. This is NOT about religion. Please understand that. This is about following the US Constitution. I am getting ad-nausea because I keep saying that so much. Mikey, could care less what any religion is, where, how, why, when, what. HE DOES NOT CARE!! It is Ted and other's who are making this a religion battles. I know if Mikey were Catholic, I feel Ted would do the same thing. Buddy, go do some research and type Mikey Weinstein in the web page address bar. Go 3 pages back and read how all this started then you will know why we are here today. I would you to like to read about one of the coaches at the Air Force Academy and read about “Team Jesus Christ” or read about Chaplain Morton, a fine Lutheran Pastor who was sent away because she agreed their was a problem.

I have always taught my kids, you do not change the law by breaking the laws. You change the laws by going through proper channels, going to court, letting others defend their reasons to keep the law. Then the court decides. There are some at the Air Force Academy who never purposely pushed religion on anyone and when educated they stopped and learned the acceptable way to teach their religion. Then there are others like Ted who feels they deserve the right to proselytize at anytime, anywhere. Unfortunately I can not put that in quotes but I do believe it was said by Ted.

I think if anyone does research about this whole situation, prays about it. It’s clear as water!

Regards,

Andy Meyer

[Buddy]

Andy,

Thank you for your reply. I cannot dispute that you and I may have varying degrees of interest in the Air Force Academy controversy; however, having spent a career in the Air Force (with the last 5 years of my career residing on the Academy), I will always have a keen interest in subjects which affect my “Air Force Family” – an interest that goes well beyond merely reading the Colorado Springs Gazette. I know the coach you speak of, and have paid keen attention to the allegations brought up by Chaplain Morton. I have also tracked Mikey’s allegations since this was made public. And finally, I do know Ted.

As you noted, there have been allegations of abuse at the Academy. In some instances, such as hateful or slanderous remarks, there are tools that Commanders may use to maintain discipline and good order. Note here that I do not see a difference whether comments are faith-based, raced-based; hateful comments are not necessarily a Constitutional issue, they are a disciplinary issue.

I believe our founding fathers, in placing the “Establishment Clause” side by side with the “Free Exercise Clause”, hoped that reasonable people could continuously work hand in hand to find the precious middle ground. Our courts have (in my opinion) tried to maintain that middle ground, whether it be Hari Krishnas in public airports or Jehovah’s Witnesses on public streets. One could argue that both groups had been accused of “prostelyzing” in their own ways, on “government property”. In both these cases, the courts came down on the side of “Free Exercise”. I’m not sure that, from a purely technical point, that Evangelicals are different.

There is one point that you make that I must take issue with (and with due respect to your opinion, of course). You state that…”You change the laws by going through proper channels, going to court, letting others defend their reasons to keep the law. Then the court decides.”…

Andy, I believe that is one of the most serious problems facing our country today. I’m a strong believer that laws are changed by legislators, and that the court’s singular role is to interpret these laws whenever necessary. Activist courts bent on changing laws do our country a grave mis-service, however well intended.

I respect your ability to continue to make rationale, unemotional points (even though this is admittedly an emotional subject for both of us).

Have a great day.

Buddy

[Andy Meyer]

Buddy,

You are correct in how laws are made, I am aware of that. Clearly I didn't articulate that well at all. Thank you for your kind words and I agree with you, I have enjoyed discussing with you in this forum. It seems I have offended some people out there as I have gotten several nasty e-mails from people but they won’t post here because they know their zealots and I won’t respond to those emails. I have also gotten several e-mails to my box supporting me but they are fearful of posting here, I do not know why but I know I am not.

My only thought is this: You stated this: "As you noted, there have been allegations of abuse at the Academy. In some instances, such as hateful or slanderous remarks, there are tools that Commanders may use to maintain discipline and good order. Note here that I do not see a difference whether comments are faith-based, raced-based; hateful comments are not necessarily a Constitutional issue, they are a disciplinary issue. "

My question to you is, why didn't it happen? Why did MANY cadets come seeking help after it was reported and the base commander who was transferred did nothing or at the very least.... put in place a policy to placate the cadets and families? Hmmmmmmm, your post while thought provoking only makes me think that if there were policies in place and the base commander didn't follow the policies, maybe he should have a dishonorable discharge? Why was he transferred?

Again, my issue is what Ted is doing and did. I certainly do not agree with how the Air Force Academy handled it, however my issue is what "Pastor" Ted has done and is doing and I think he owes several people an explanation as to why he started an e-mail log with Mikey and "tattled" to the press and posted here on the internet. That's really my issue at this time and it grows every time I get emails from Christians telling me off….. However…. Then I get a good e-mail and it makes me want to fight this longer and a little harder…. I wonder if Ted would ever say “I am sorry Mikey for acting like a 3rd grader and sending our private e-mail exchange to the entire nation… Why don’t you ask him that Buddy and let me know his response??

Respectfully

Andy Meyer

[Buddy]

Andy,

I am truly sorry that you are getting nasty e-mails as a result of our exchanges. We as a country seem to have a problem with open honest discussion. Do we give up freedoms for the sake of security? Why do we, as a people, leave this and other important issues to courts to decide without the benefit of public debate?

With respect to your question about AF leadership, and that maybe the Commandant/Superintendent deserved more than a transfer, I believe that there have been multiple steps implemented to resolve both actual and perceived cases of intolerance. I think the Brady report, released this past summer, goes a long way in addressing many of the issues that have been raised. Let me reiterate that I believe this to be a disciplinary issue, not a Constitutional issue that needs to be raised to the level of our Supreme Court. This was summed up by AFA Board member and former Gov James Gilmore when he said that "the academy will not tolerate religious abuse or favoritism but will protect the right of religious freedom." I think that's what we are all looking for.

Now..with respect to Ted and the release of the exchanges between himself and Mikey: I don't know why that happened - I won't second guess that conversation and it's subsequent release - and have no intentions on asking Ted. Whereas you stated that "my issue is what Ted is doing and did", my issue is trying to ensure that SSGT Jones is not persecuted for inviting someone to prayer.

Thanks again for the great discussion.

Buddy

[Andy Meyer]

Ted,

Thank you for your reply, it shows courage on your part. I have to take exception to some of your thoughts in your email though. Please keep in mind that I am a Christian and I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt however let me share with you my thoughts.

My first thought when you told me you sent Mikey a "funny e-mail" how many funny e-mails or e-mails have you both ever had prior to this one? My thought is probably ZERO. I personally didn't find the joke funny as a Christian and certainly if I was in Mikey's shoes after watching you too on Hardball, talk shows and reading about you in papers and on the Internet, I would not consider that funny but rather another dig from you to me. I do not send jokes to people I am having discourse with, certainly a "joke" that's an insult to all religious faiths. I can't see where you thought it was funny.

Second.... I saw the joke you sent Mikey and he sent it to HIS friends, family and interested parties who have ASKED to be on his mailing list. You could have sent it to your mailing list however you unilaterally sent it to the entire nation by sending it to the press and posting it online. Don't you think that's extremely unethical as a pastor? Mikey ONLY sent it to HIS e-mail list, and the only email he sent was the joke, with the words along the lines that he didn't know you all were so chummy. He didn't send the preceding exchanges between you both. You also neglected to post his very last e-mail message online

" ...."while you are working to muzzle freedom of _expression under the guise of separation of church and state.."............tsk, tsk, tsk, Ted......up is now down and black is now white and rainy day is now sunny day, eh??!!.....your nonsensical rhetoric does not become you........hey, I thought ya did NOT wanna do this via e-mail anyway.............it would seem that you and I are NOT talking to the same Jews and evangelicals these days.........I can match and exceed your transparent name-dropping ANY day so let's not go down that path, ok??!! ...........you have my phone numbers if ya wanna REALLY discuss this debacle, Ted..............Mikey "

Why was this not posted?? If you want to post e-mail exchanges, shouldn't you do the whole e-mail exchange? I also wonder, you stated you didn't want to “discuss this in an e-mail” yet you kept sending emails to Mikey also I noticed that Mikey asked you to call him in almost every e-mail to discuss this with you over the phone. He even asked for an invitation to go to your church as long as “you provide the protection.” I understand that, ever since I posted on the blog I have gotten letters from “Christians” Who call me “Jew lover” or told me to “go **** a Jew”. I have also gotten a few e-mails from people agreeing with me that what you did was wrong.

My last comment is: you stated to Mikey "I just wanted you to know that I'm constantly involved in trying to protect Israel and other international Jewish interests, and find it difficult to defend Jewish causes around the world and, at the same time, have men like yourself trying to use increased government regulation to limit freedom here at home,'' Pride comes before the fall Ted.....

Do you really think you're the only one out there Ted? Why did you say “evangelical organization could always start to withhold their support of Israel and Israeli causes.” You call Israel and told them that….That is in my opinion an attempt at extortion. It also makes me think about why you are helping, what do you want in return……

I understand that you believe in your cause and I am not putting your cause down, I really feel that if you are going to put everything out there for the public to come to their own conclusions that you should be honest. People are reading this and everyone is drawing their own conclusions… The more I watch this boil, I do feel it needs to be settled in court, I am a Christian Ted, BIG TIME, I love Jesus and pray everyday however the laws of this land are clear. I do feel that it is my job to teach people about Jesus Christ and try to teach them about Christianity however there is a time and a place for everything and you admitted that there were abuses issues going on at the Academy. Ted, they weren't taken care of, it should have never happened. When cadets of different religions come out and say there being forced to taste Christianity, that is wrong and you know it too! I do not on any level agree with you stating that Mikey is trying to “restrict freedom of religion and speech at the Academy. He wants to limit freedom of religion and speech, even for chaplains, and allow only government sanctioned religious actions and speech. I think that in his attempt to defend the establishment clause of the constitution, he will unintentionally force the government to establish what it considers acceptable religious expression and totally trample the free exercise clause.” I also think Chaplain Mortin would disagree with you on that one.

I know Mikey very well; my friends and colleagues call me a human Barometer. Mikey started this whole issue as a concerned parent long before you ever got wind of it, it wasn't until he hit wall after wall after wall when he went public. If you were to walk into his house, you would see Air Force Academy everywhere; he loves that school and supports it in many different ways. You do not know Mikey and I ask that you quit assuming stuff about him.

I will end this long letter by thanking you again and I ask that you call him and talk to him man to man, and I think you owe him an apology and you know what Ted…. I believe that down in your heart you know what you did was below the belt and God knows it as well. Be an example and say you're sorry for sending out the e-mail, you will gain my respect and many others. I do pray you do that, Mikey deserves that. I hope you would not consider that as a win, but that would definitely in my opinion extends “an olive branch” that you and I know you own him.

Your brother in Christ,

Andy Meyer

[Andy Meyer]

Here is a nice letter I got today....

Andy,


I read ytour post on the blog and it clear to me you and mike are fellow jewish people why dont you come out of the closet we know the truth

heree is something is saw on you

i think yoiiu need hrelp


joe


A fleeing Christian named Ted Haggard, desperate for water, was plodding through the
New Mexico
desert when he saw something far off in the distance.

Hoping to find water, he walked toward the object,only to find a young man named Andy sitting at a card-table with neckties laid out on it. Ted
asked, "My thirst is killing me. Do you have water?"

Andy replied, "I have no water. Would you like to buy a tie?
They
are only $150. This one goes very nicely with your robes."

Ted Shouted, "Idiot! I do not need an overpriced tie. I need
water!"

"OK," said Andy, "it does not matter that you do not want to buy
a
tie, and that you insult me. I will show you that you have not
offended me.
If you walk over that hill to the east for about two miles, you will
find a
lovely restaurant. Go! Walk that way! The restaurant has all the water
you
need!"

Ted staggered away toward the hill and eventually disappeared.
Four
hours later Ted came crawling back to where Andy was
sitting
at his table. Andy said, "I told you, about two miles over that
hill.
Could you not find it?

"I found it all right," rasped Ted. "Your brother Mikey won't let me in
without a tie

[Non-Prophet]

I laughed out loud when I read that. :)

[Dan]

The Gospel according to Luke according to Ted, the tenth chapter:

30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead...

33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was; and when he saw him, he remembered that another Jew had taken a position that he found distasteful, and he passed by on the other side.

34 Then did Jesus realize that his story was going nowhere, and he was out four verses.

[Andy Meyer]

ok.... I do not get that... care to explain Dan?

[Laura Cain]

Andy,

You have written, “I respect their opinion but you are attacking me, and you're a Christian?” O.K. Andy, your bias is showing. Apparently, as Sarah pointed out, you seem to respect only those whose opinions agree with yours. What do you call what you are doing to Ted if not attacking him while “claiming to be a Christian” as well. Hmmm…, who needs to rethink their approach here?

You wrote to Ted: “You have totally failed your church, and all Christians and you do not speak for me and many of my Christian friends.” I could say the same, Andy. You see, I am a member of Ted’s eleven-thousand-member church and “you don’t speak for me."

You continued to address Ted; "As a Pastor, your job is to..." Hmmm, interesting how everyone SEEMS to know what a pastor’s job is, yet NO ONE has accurately quoted it from the Bible.

You also wrote, “One of the great lessons that I learned from being a Christian, and the great group of Christians everywhere, is that everyone matters, everyone has a voice irrespective of their religious faith, race, national origin or political affiliation.” Andy, the point is that everyone matters to GOD too and that is why Christians evangelize. WE, and GOD, do not want anyone to perish, but for all to come to a saving knowledge of Christ.

You have written that you don't think this is about religion. Then what you wrote here must be more pertinent; “It’s a terrible shame and a horrific travesty that you are torturing and twisting what Mikey is saying and what the Constitution states!” Shall we examine exactly “what the Constitution states” and who is “twisting” what:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." Hmmm…I don’t seem to see the precise phrase “separation of Church and state” anywhere stated in this document. What I do see is:

“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion...” Is Congress in any danger of doing this in the near future? No, I think not.

“...or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;” Is Congress in danger of this? Imminently. If Mikey has his way in this case, he will be guilty of coercing government entities into “prohibiting the free exercise of religion,” as well as the what the next phrase addresses--“the freedom of speech”--to those who choose a military career in the Air Force. Employment by the Government should not require an individual to completely relinquish his or her U.S. Constitutional rights. This is a grievous misinterpretation of our Constitution.

You also wrote,"I am going to send you a rubber bracelet that has written on it WWJD? The acronym stands for 'What would Jesus do?' I think you need to give that a lot of thought. I suggest you get down on your knees and ask our dear Lord for forgiveness." O.K. This is not only NOT funny, but truly sad. Do you really think that you know what Jesus would do? The Bible states that God's thoughts are above man's. There is no way for man to attain, or even comprehend, God's thoughts.

Christian, Seminary student, New Life Member, Mother, Wife, Teacher, etc, etc, etc...

Laura Cain

Post Script: There is an article for all to read at agapepress.org:

"Former Army Chaplain Calls for Executive Order to End USAF's Religious Persecution", By Chad Groening, January 6, 2006.

[Sansabelt Savior]

Laura, pardon me, but if man cannot understand the will of God, then how can you claim that your perspective is the Biblically correct one?

Let's leave this whole, "God must want what I want," thing alone, shall we?

As for the Constitution, certainly the language of the Constitution does not include the phrase, "separation of church and state"; nevertheless, it is a well-founded principle that simply makes good sense in a diverse representative democracy. It is also thoroughly established historically and legally.

And while we're at it, maybe you fundamentalists should get on the same page. First, we've got Dan saying that this is a disciplinary matter, then we've got Laura saying that religious persecution is okay because the words "separation of church and state" don't appear in the Constitution. Which is it? Is theocracy actually okay under the Constitution, or does the AFA just have a few bad apples that the command structure has completely failed to discipline?

What is clear to me, and I suspect will become clear to the rest of the world as the extreme religious right wing continues to speak, is that no principle underlies the philosophy of the religious right. Because a desire to impose your opinions, your beliefs, or your choices on other people isn't a principle, it is a position of fear, and ultimately, of weakness. Evangelism may be protected speech, but that doesn't mean the right to evangelize supercedes the rights of others, or that religious preference or religious prosecution can be tolerated in our government institutions.