The Power of Arrogance

[Update] Jeff Sharlet and Rob Brendle discuss the Harpers essay here.

After reading the first column in the Toilet Paper by associate Pastor Rob Brendle of New Life Church in Colorado Springs, recently reported on in Harpers, I was curious. He didn't seem like such a bad guy. Even liberal at times when he spoke of not believing the Bible to be the inerrant word of God or when he said that he supported government getting out of the marriage debate altogether, certifying only civil unions and leaving the rest to churches.  I decided to hear his Saturday night talk titled, "The Power of Ideas."

Rob has the mad intensity of a meth-amphetamine addict, but is far more articulate. He does a great job of staying with his train of thought during his frenzied rants, and when he goes astray he always backs up and gets on track.

Rob tells about what he learned on his trip to India.

Firstly, he gives a rundown of how India is a culture of chaos. He goes on for a long time about how crazy the traffic is. It's obviously a scene he's not accustomed to, but he's funny. He used term, "culture of chaos" repeatedly to describe the country.

We don't want to make fun of anther culture.

But we do need to understand that all the stuff we're fed by politically correct America, that it's not right or wrong, it's just different, celebrate diversity? It's good to celebrate diverse people, but to celebrate culture in diverse people simply because it's diverse if foolishness. I'll tell you what, I'm not celebrating much of what I saw over there.

I'm not celebrating chaos.

Why is it like that? Did the people that live over there instead of forming a nation that makes sense decide one day, "hey, lets form a nation based on chaos?"

He goes on to blame the chaos in the country on Hinduism.

Where does the chaos come from? It comes from polytheism.

At this point I'm beginning to feel ill. I wish Rob would visit Ecuador to see where his logic is based on insane crap. There, basically everyone is Christian, they are far more religious than America, but it is just as bad and chaotic as India. They don't even have the economic growth that India has. Nobody listening to him would stand up and say, "Rob, you are so full of shit that it is coming out of your ears, and you stink. Boo! You're an arrogant fuck!"

He goes on to explain why Indians have low regard for human life because, "at best you can come back as a cow. How much would you value human life if at best you could come back as a cow?"

He talks a bit about the terrible poverty he saw.

He says that the poverty in the country stems from inefficient government. He tells a story about how silly the whole country is while talking about getting his lost luggage returned. He says he ranted about how silly having to sign for his bags were with the officials that were returning them. The audience is rolling at this point. "it was so frustrating." Rob says their government has it all wrong.

Awe gee Rob, everything is not all smooth and wonderful like we have it. Must be because they are polytheistic. While you are a very smart guy, I'll give you that, you're mean spirited and narrow in your perception. Maybe India is poor because they lack natural resources, and because they spent decades being oppressed by Christians. Maybe they are overpopulated and their problems are too big to solve with your simple solution of ideas. Maybe ideas alone don't do shit.

"None of these problems came about by chance. All of these problems, all of these cultural flaws, are the direct consequence of bad ideas."

Brendle begins a theme about, "Bad Ideas"

He goes on to rag on Darwinism for a bit. He says that Stalin killed millions due to Darwinism.

He has this creepy thing he does where he makes a statement and then says, "Everybody say bad idea," or "Everybody say good idea," as if he's asking for a affirmation, or more probably he's making everyone chant their agreement with him.

Flying home on the plane, Rob decided to spend some time thinking about why we in the US live the way we do.

Why do we live in nice apartments or single family houses? Why do we eat generally what we want to eat? Why are we free to drive around, and why do most of us own our own vehicles? Why do we have safe streets? Why do we have institutions that protect us rather than subjugate us, and those Indian people live the way they live?

Are we just better?

He continues...

We are living the product of some peoples good intentional ideas.

He goes on to say that we live differently from people in India because our ideas are different.

He talks about our economy, and how with seasonal exception it is always moving upward. Has he even looked at what India's economy is doing? It is #21 for growth globally and we're not in the top 50. (*The Economist Pocket World in Figures 2004)

In the United states the standard of living is higher than almost anywhere in the world, and in the United States People are treated as Equal."

In the United states people generally follow the rule of law, and when they don't we have a very efficient system that deals with them.

Rob continues, and brings up a book he's started reading about how Christian ethics have changed society, and how powerful ideas are.

He's still on the plane thinking,

What does that mean to us, I was grabbing my heart

He begins to plug away about how Christianity has the right ideas.

We are all running some sector of Gods delegated authority.

Rob rambles on about healthy and dysfunctional families and businesses. Lack of vision leads to dissonance. Agreed. This goes on for a while.

His whole rant starts to get really general and while it does make some sense it sounds like something he wrote before his trip to India that he integrated post trip. I don't see the connection to India anymore. He's saying to have good families, which I totally agree with, but I no longer see much connection other than India is chaos, don't be chaos at home.

What truths does your family hold to be self evident?

That sounds corny, and is. Though the topic is not.

He talks about saying to his kid, "To be a Brendle means you never talk bad about the body of Christ," while his kid drools carrot baby-food down his face. Funny.

Brendle talks about how his life doesn't revolve around his children, while they are important, Christ is numero uno.

He continues on about Paul talking about how being married can make you primarily concerned with more than being with the lord.

On Monday is Family day.

But I work hard six days a week.

He says if he is away on a Monday he reschedules his family day. Cool that he spends dedicates one day out of seven with his family though. While that might seem a bit lean it is more than some bother to set aside.

An immovable priority order is an unmistakable chain of command.

He does sound like a good guy, and other than all the ranting/brainwashing he's probably not a bad father. By ranting/brainwashing I mean that he doesn't seem to sound like he'd consider his kids views on things. I always consider my kids view. Almost all of the time she's wrong, but there are rare occasions when she makes a good point and I explain to her why it is a good point.

Just then he becomes Mr. Assclown.

There must be an unmistakable chain of command.

He then talks about the man leading. He quotes 1st Timothy 2:12 saying:

"I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man. She must be silent."

It's not good for the woman to be in authority.

My Physicist mom, who is smarter than myself or even Mr. Brendle if here, would have then kicked Brendles ass, literally!

There is nothing more pathetic or dysfunctional than a home, trying to claim to be a Christian home, that's lead, at least in theory that's lead by a de-pants man.

Big laughs!

it doesn't work!

I'm having a harder and harder time seeing what this has to do with India. He continued that the man is supposed to be nice to the woman, like Christ, but I'm feeling woozy.

Authority Jesus model is simply a system of order.

Rob is sounding just like a promise keeper. This is much more interesting than anything I expected to hear here.

The last idea I want to suggest is an unswerving commitment to discipline.

And with our children I know it has become fashionable to seek alternative methods, and I know it has become a subject of pressure from the outside, well.... from the secular world, not to practice corporal punishment, that's spanking. But the Bible has some pretty clear things to say. In proverbs 24:13 it says he who spares the rod hates his son, everybody say, "I do not hate my son." (crowd says it) Then don't spare the rod. But he who loves his is careful to discipline him. Not spanking your child, the bible says, not taking the rod to his little booty, is hating him.

He speaks about his friend who gave him a rod of correction, inscribed with proverbs that drove fear of the lord into kids.

if that is true, then our children are born not with a heart of good bound up but with a a heart of folly bound up in their heart. How do you get it out? You spank it out.

(big laughs)

it's not that hard!

It's interesting to point out that nowhere in the proverbs or nowhere else in the bible does it point out that the the timeout chair imparts wisdom.

(more big laughs)

He then attempts to tie the whole thing together by briefly saying that everyone is forming a country of sorts, and that discipline and choices make it healthy.

Oh well. While I really tried to listen to Rob and learn to like him he has a hard long slog of repentance ahead. Never have I heard so much arrogant, narrowminded talk come out of one mouth that obviously has a brain attached to it. The way he travelled to India and was instantly able to summarize the whole problem over there as a problem of ideas was grotesque. He then continued to offend the very functional and thought provoking family that raised me. Shame on you Rob. Shame on you for judging almost a billion people as suffering because they don't share your powerful ideas.

[Update] Jeff Sharlet and Rob Brendle discuss the Harpers Article here.

Comments

[Nate]

While Rob's ancestors in Europe were still fumbling with the abacus, the early Hindus had come up with a number system (which unlike the system in Europe, included zero) enabling them to perform complex calculations very quickly. Luckily, the idiotic ideas of the Greek Aristotle had not made much of a long-term impression on the Hindus as it did on Europe. Later, when the Arabs swept through India, they discovered the Indian system of numbers and quickly became experts at it. What we call the "Arabic" numerals should really be called the "Hindu" numerals (evidence: Sanskrit). Thanks to those 'bad ideas', we can thank the chaotic Hindus and Arabs for eventually dragging the Chrisitians (who stone-walled on the change for centuries) out of the 'Dark Ages' and introducing the power of a real number system to the rest of the world. The seemingly inconsequential idea of a number system with zero (and infinity) brought about a loosening of the power of the Roman Catholic church (which fought the idea, and lost to business which realized it's usefulness) and set the stage for a scientific revolution and the protestant reformation. Thus, in a sense, Rob can thank those 'chaotic' Hindus for making it possible for him to read the bible in English (and not Latin), and to choose to ignore several texts of the bible that Catholics accept, and permitting protestants to read the Old Testament as allegory while claiming the New Testament is not. [aside to self in Groucho Marx voice] "How Christians get away with claiming the trinity is not polytheism, I'll never know."

Oh, and if he thinks India is chaotic - he should try driving in lower Manhattan sometime.

[Non-Prophet]

Nate,

Can you point me to a source where the RCC fighting the numbering system? I'd like to read about that some more. When did that happen? I thought that reasonably complex math existed during the exodus.

I always thought that Christian nations were successful because of an expansionist mentality (Holy Roman Empire, Crusades, pilgrims etc...), plus they got good cards at the beginning if the game of Risk.

Yeah, Rob seems like a personable enough guy, but he offended me as an American with his instant answer to 3rd world poverty.

[zicron]

Brother NP,

Thanks for directing me here, I have to confess that due to my cultural backgrounds, this topic sound most intriging to me but I couln't gain more insight from this.

imho human civilisation split from the beginning, in some point of history there is a chance for reconciliation, the different opinion that we have are not of so great issue, ones must thinks how can we contribute to a greater good, aka world peace.

I'm born in an era without have to suffer the plight of war, hunger, etc, but i do understand what India has gone through during colonial times, there is no peace to it without the heart of reconcilliation, im my opinion of course.....

Zicron

[brianarnot]

This is astounding. I'd thought the Toilet Paper at least had one person working for it that wasn't out to offend people left and right; I was wrong.

"It's not good for the woman to be in authority. There is nothing more pathetic or dysfunctional than a home, trying to claim to be a Christian home, that's led - at least in theory - that's lead by a depantsed man."

Wow.

[Lili]

Great post, wonderfully written! I often say that it's people like this that give Christianity a bad rap. That much hate and messy bigoted thinking being spewn is bad for everyone.

[Dan]

"I always thought that Christian nations were successful because of an expansionist mentality (Holy Roman Empire, Crusades, pilgrims etc...), plus they got good cards at the beginning if the game of Risk."

I take your overall point, but the Holy Roman Empire was pretty dismal, never achieving much at all as far as hegemony over Europe. (neither Holy, Roman or an Empire, as the man said)

And the Christians didn't do to well in the Crusades, unless you count the destruction of the Byzantine Empire.

Never underestimate good cards.

[Michael]

From what I've read, the few lines quoted about India and the ideas put forth are without much forethought. America itself was and in many ways today, still is a land of rebellion according to Christ. Las Vegas, Hollywood, Porn industry, gambling now in almost every major city(or just outside).

We are blessed in this country. I don't however pretend to know how or why God has so blessed us nor do I think that everyone in this country has been all blessed equally alike. Yes, one can look back and see historical points along the way which led to our current position.

Looking at the future however I see a country like India becoming every bit as blessed if not more in the future.

Where Rob saw Chaos, God makes order. Had anyone seen the original 13 colonies as they truly were years ago, chaos surely was claimed by the sophiticated French, Brits, Dutch and Spainish. I'm sure these old countries looked upon the New Americas as wildly out of control wilderness areas.

So now, today, some people may look about them and see chaos in other countries. Is it to simplistic to say its due to pantheism for India? Yes, certainly, there are many reasons. Colonialism and its affects, corruption(government and business), education, communication, standards, and religious persecution, a lack of true freedom where sane voices can be heard above the rubble.

India was at a disadvantage for many reasons, yet it is improving and faster than anyone expected it would. It is becoming a home of leading software companies, programmers, scientist and even new Christian voices are allowed to be heard where previous none could be spoken. Secularist and Theist of all persuasions are being allowed to speak freely in many areas.

But it still has a long ways to go. There are many areas of oppression either by Hindu, Muslim or plainly Tribal cultures which seek to hold traditional power over their people. Much like the "old" - backward looking - Roman Catholic churh did in its 'past' history. I'm sure some here will argue it still does, but its a far cry from its past.

Rob appears to be a young man with not much experience, without good mentorship and on fire for God. Fire can be wielded for good, but at the same time easily get out of control if not properly maintained by a seasoned voice.

Humility, lovingkindness, mercy, giving, these are all hallmarks of Christ. I suspect Christ would see the same chaos and report back the need to go there and help, to give a lifting hand, to teach the good news.

However nice that all sounds. At the end of his visit, even Christ would say a choice must be made. He would not need to be critical of the country, nor the chaos, nor even its leaders, but only of those who heard his truth and turned away.
That is the message I've heard and learned.

Its not where you live, the socio-politico-economic system bad or good. It is simply the Word come to life in Christ. That by following him it does not matter where you live, what you do in life(garbage man or CEO), but in hearing his word you become not of this world, but live for a world hereafter. To this word, many will hear and reject, others will hear, follow, but fall away due to the worlds influence and there there will be a few who hear, follow and obey. This is the good seed.

Christianity is the fastest growing seed in India today and thus my point about Chaos and God's order. Thousands are coming to Christ every day out of the chaos that is New India.

Thanks for the article, it was eye opening look into a Church-movement I was not familiar with. There seems to be so many now days.

[Andrew Mondy]

Wow. Non-Prophet can visit a visit a church -- once -- and draw conclusions from one sermon -- without any context from the sermon the week before nor the week after, which provided a more complete picture of the issue -- and assume he has an accurate perspective of New Life and SATURDAYNIGHT. He can then post a few of those lines on this blog, and add his commentary, and now all of you think you have a good idea of this new "Church-movement."

For all your talk about Evangelical's lack of cultural senstivity, it seems you've just violated your own position: you don't really know anything about the people you're criticizing. Rob Brendle speaks to the same ever-growing group of people every Saturday, week after week. There are augmenting issues he covers the other fifty-one weeks of the year which you assume that he didn't mention just because Non-Prophet didn't hear them mentioned the one week he was there.

Wow.

Talk about "The Power of Arrogance" . . .

[York Phago]

What if NP was just a normal "Joe" from Larkspur lookin' for a new church and didn't like the "product" as it were, and retained no ability to speak his mind over the miracle of the world wide web? If a restaurant can be rated on one pass shouldn't a megachurch be as well? So what if he found that one of the church's pastors is a culturally sanctimoneous idiot? Surely if he returned on another night the New Life Product would have a different pastor to sate NP's "arrogant" palate, would it not?

I'm sure a "How'd We Do?" card is in the mail.

21. Did you find the New Life body, staff and pastors sufficiently culturally insular? Y N NA

To think one has the temerity to judge such things!

At this rate megachurches are going to go biometric for fear of thoughtcrime and market dilution.

[Josh Narins]

Thanks for providing this first hand account.

By the way, we use Arabic numerals, but the Arabs use Hindu numerals.

[Josh Narins]

Andrew Mundy is wrong. Non-Prophet isn't generalizing about every pastor of every evangelical church, nor is he describing all Christians, he's just talking about what he actually saw. Sorta as if Pastor Rob had simply described the traffic in India, without trying to blame it on polytheism. Did Non-Prophet say "And this stupidity is what believing in God will do to you?" No.

[Sarah Dylan Breuer]

I wonder whether it ever occurred to Pastor Rob that the U.S. and European nations have a higher standard of living than former U.S. and European colonies because us white folks stole other people's land, took slaves, and sucked dry every natural resource we could get our hands on.

And besides, you can't have it both ways. You can't say on one hand that countries that have higher standards of living have "godly" governments and ways of life on one hand, and then complain on the other hand that we are a "godless" nation because we lack formal and institutionalized prayer in schools, or that Britain is "godless" because they allow same-sex couples access to many of the same rights as heterosexually married couples.

Gad. I'm sure this guy's perfectly nice, but he should hold off on pontificating about development until he's at least read a few books on the subject.

[Steve]

Pastor Rob should be judged upon what he says, not only what he does. God gave us the power of reason, which is based on logic. Such reason and logic gave us science, the principles of which Pastor Rob relied on to fly him across the planet to India. Unfortunately, Pastor Rob abuses reason and logic--gifts from God, if you will--by the conclusions he draws from his experience, and what he tells his audience to think. The obvious rebuttal to the idea that Polytheism = Bad Ideas = Chaos is Pre-WWII Germany. The Germans brought nationalistic fascism in the guise of Christian order to the chaos that was the 1930s, and this order was used to exterminate millions of Jews, Gypsys, homosexuals, and other "nondesirables" who did not fit into Hitler's version of order.

This isn't to say that Pastor Ted, Rob, et al. are going in this direction, but they misuse their positions to make correlations that are not only wrong, but dangerous. This trend takes us exactly in the same direction of those religions which have strangled or never accepted the Enlightenment. Critical thinking brought the U.S. our position in the world, for better or for worse, and the lack thereof dooms us to mediocrity and decline. It is our responsibility as thinking Christians--and there are many of us--to challenge this personal interpretation of Christianity, and to speak up. And it is only an interpretation that Pastor Bob/Ted/et al. offers, not the truth.

[Andrew Mondy]

I still can't believe how self-righteous and arrogant the comments of those who've never visited SATURDAYNIGHT are on this blog. Almost every single accusation raised against Rob's single sermon does the very thing it accuses him of doing. There are a wide range of opinions on what causes societies to be great, or orderly, or economically advanced. According to your position, it is equally as foolish for you to assert that Rob's opinion is wrong as is it is for him to assert it. Putting it differently, if you were to say that there is no way to know; he might be right, he might be wrong, you would be following your own doctrine of "tolerance" and "relativism." As it is, you are hypcritical at best.

The point of Rob's message (for all of you who not only weren't there, but also didn't bother to listen to it online) was not to bash India, it was to encourage people to use reason and ideas to make their own world better. India happened to be the illustration du jour.

Any reasonable person who looks at the world and at least pretends to be un-biased will notice that the most orderly societies are not polytheistic. And most polytheistic societies are disorderly. (Oh, and finding an exception does not render the norm completely false.) It may be offensive to those of your persuasion that we Christians think our ideas are better, but simply being offended and ridiculing our ideas is not proof we are wrong. At least we are consistent--vehemently asserting that there are no absolutes is self-contradictory at its core.

[elle van]

will I go to hell for living in a pants-less home?

No, that's not what decides where you spend eternity.

[Nate]

Both Sarah and Steve are right on target here. Rob's claim that India is somehow a 'chaotic' country is absurd - I suggest he make a trip over to Iraq sometime. To blame it on Polytheism is even more ridiculous. Ever hear of a place called Rome?? Perhaps the most orderly society in Western history - they were polytheists.

Polytheism may offend Rob, but frankly I find the ancient polytheistic myths/stories of my own forest dwelling ancestors (who were of Germanic/Celtic origin) far more relevant to my daily life (and more beautiful) than the angry, desperate and sometimes hateful rantings (I am referring to the Bible here in case Andrew misses my slur) of the ancient desert peoples of the Middle East anyway.

[Alex]

Andrew, unless you're accusing NP of _making_up_ the story of his visit to NLC and Rob's sermon (and hey--I didn't go; I'm just taking NP's word for it), I don't see how you can say that we can't judge NLC based on the article. Any place that would have a fool like Rob stand before a huge crowd and say all that self-affirming nonsense must pretty much agree with him ideologically.

To me, it's very sad how many people insist on simple explanations that blandly affirm their own "goodness" rather than more plausible ones that don't necessarily cast them in such a good light. Sure, we _want_ to believe that we're in better shape than India because we _deserve_ it, but is it really true? Are you really sold on this? Maybe we've stolen some of what we have? Maybe we've had some good luck? Have you read "Guns, Germs and Steel"? That explains some of it (namely, why the Europeans triumphed over the Native Americans).

And Nate, Aristotle wasn't an "idiot." The fact that his ideas do not square with modern science means nothing, given that modern science did not exist back then. It's like condemning Newton for not knowing about gluons. Although the priests and professors gave Galileo a lot of trouble for disagreeing with Aristotle, Aristotelian theories did give Galileo a framework in which to think about physics.

[Erasmus]

Stumbled upon this blog through Cursor.org, and I just had to take some time to comment. My compliments on NP on his foray into the world of the Mega-church. The concept of personal spirituality being sold in a warehouse setting has amused me to no end, yet has not interested me enough intellectually to actually witness the process itself. The "faithful" may have progressed to the point where they congregate in relative luxury as compared to the Old Testamant cast who cowered in the blistering heat of the desert sun awaiting the wrath (or occassional blessing) of Jehova, but the message is the same...

"I do not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man. She must be silent."

I find this pre-literate dribble to be the most offensive of Rob's statements, especially since it is (I can only assume) a direct quote from the thrown together and vastly edited "insert version here" Bible. I'd love to find a self-professed female Christian who will tell me that they actually believe that statement to be "the truth". I suppose that means that all of the laughter that followed his droll wittisicms must have come from the male portion of his flock.

All sarcasm aside, I have to ask Andrew (because he seems to be the only Christian within shouting distance) that if he believes this...

"It may be offensive to those of your persuasion that we Christians think our ideas are better, but simply being offended and ridiculing our ideas is not proof we are wrong."

...then does that mean that he belives that Christianity is the only way? If you read this, and would be so kind as to answer, I would really like to know. Personally, I do not belive in moral and ethical absolutes. They are just "ideas" and are subject to nearly endless conditions. So maybe Robs ideas are conditional, too. Just becase they might work for a tiny minority drunk on group-think does not mean that they will work in India or any other society that has shunned the Christian conversion machine. But that's just my opinion.

NP, keep up the good work!

[theorajones]

"He goes on to rag on Darwinism for a bit. He says that Stalin killed millions due to Darwinism."

Think someone should point out to the good Rev. that Stalin wasn't a Darwinist? It was all Lysenko, all the time. I suppose a rejection of science is one thing that all extremists have in common...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lysenkoism

[Andrew Mondy]

Erasmus,

Yes, I do believe that Christianity is the only way. In fact, it seems difficult if not impossible to be a Christian and think otherwise. Jesus did not leave any other option in his teaching, (which, by the way distinguishes him from other religious teachers) when he said:

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6 NIV

So, while you may not like it much, that is the position of Christianity, and your gripe is neither with me nor with my opinion, but with Jesus. Do you have further questions on this?

Incidentally, if you "do not believe in moral or ethical absolutes," then I am sure you would not have a problem with my brutally torturing you or bringing dozens of people to your house to beat, rape and murder your family members, would you? Oh, you would? So then there are some moral absolutes you believe in...right? (And just to prevent imbecilic comments, the above question is purely hypothetical and is not within the ideals of Christianity. Sheesh.)

For the third time in this string of comments, I am forced to conclude that the positions of most who post on this blog are hypocritical and inconsitent. Stating that there are no moral absolutes is itself a moral absolute, and you've just undone your argument. I don't know how many different ways I can make that clear. I think there ARE moral absolutes, set by one who is Supreme to human existence, and I will consistently argue my position as clearly as possible. I am not hostile to comments or questions; in fact I welcome them. But let it be forever clear on this blog that I find it absurd to absolutely assert a lack of absolutes.

[Nate]

Put me in the camp with those who think that morals are taught and learned and can vary from culture to culture and over time. It was perfectly acceptable to kidnap (and enslave) folks from neighboring villages in yearly "raids" in cultures all over the globe (including the ancient Irish!) for most of the time since the birth of Christ. Slavery is acknowledged and permitted in the Old testament (Leviticus 25:44-46), and you could even beat those slaves (Exodus 21:20-21) and get away with it! I see this as a problem for any Christian who would claim that there exist moral absolutes: how do you know what they *currently* are if they change over time and yet the bible remains static?

[Curious Stranger]

Rape and pillage was part and parcel of the Crusades. Those moral absolutes see to be absolutely situational.

[Sansabelt Savior]

Andrew, the problem with Rob's statements isn't so much their being interpreted via a relativistic viewpoint, it's that they contain patently absurd assertions based on faulty reasoning. If the point of the sermon, "was to encourage people to use reason and ideas to make their own world better," one might reasonably expect the logic of his sermon to stand up to scrutiny. It does not.

Repeating over and over again that relativism isn't a valid approach in no way manages to dispute the wrong-headedness of the excerpts presented here. And I suspect no amount of context could make them appear reasonable to people who prize logic. Again, if the cry of relativism is the only defense you hold against the poor conclusions Rob drew in his sermon, a strategic retreat may be your best option.

[Jaybird]

Benefiting from the blood-and sweat-bathed development of a society that strived for perfection in moral and practical matters, it is very comfortable to attribute oneself with logic and maturity, even tolerance. The Crusades were a product of their times when all sorts of people went about pillaging and feuding. Christianity speaks to the individual so that he can change his heart, ideas, way of living, which can over time change a society to higher levels of education, technology, and the comfort zone, from which one can freely attack religious and other concepts without understanding them, sow intolerance in the name of tolerance, and sip a coke with air conditioning. How bad America may have turned, and how much progressive India may have become, Ecuador is in a transit period, and there is a reason for everything.
To Andrew: Don t speak to a fool according to his folly; speak to a fool according to his folly. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. (1 Cor.)

[Sansabelt Savior]

Goddamnit! I love these people who cannot begin to formulate any kind of reasonable argument. Listen, Jaybird, I realize that for whatever reason, you've decided the time has come to unleash your arguments upon the world, but they are arguments that I've seen before. They are based on emotion, nothing more. Certainly not logic.

No doubt, there is no comparison betwixt India and Ecuador, because that might upset your whole argument. As a Consumerist-Christian evangelist, you clearly know better than anyone that your embrace of self-important, omniscient, judgementalism provides you with a shield that repels any logical demands of argument.

Just so you know, if you call me out, I will respond in kind. You're a fool and a hypocrite if you think that your desire for permanence protects you from attack on your fully unjustified and idiotic position.

I fully attribute the advantage of my position to those who have predated me, but that doesn't mean I should hold on to the fallacies of the past just because it might make people such as yourself happy.

Your own beliefs are the product of people such as Luther, who didn't care as much about the contributions of those that bought into convention, as he cared about the connection between the individual and God. Your culturally superior attitude is inconsistent with sound theology, as well as sound thinking.

If you are going to call me a fool, I will call you an idiot and see if you can actually support your position, or if it is built on nothing more than ad hominem attack. I suspect the latter, fucker.

[Sansabelt Savior]

"Christianity speaks to the individual so that he can change his heart, ideas, way of living, which can over time change a society to higher levels of education, technology, and the comfort zone, from which one can freely attack religious and other concepts without understanding them, sow intolerance in the name of tolerance, and sip a coke with air conditioning."

Jaybird, you seem blissfully ignorant of the violent and oppressive history of Christianity as a political movement. Wait, I forgot, anything bad that Christianity has produced has only been a product of the times. Christianity and Christians bear no responsibility for their ideas and actions, no matter how violent or divisive. Right?

No doubt the ignorance of the Middle Ages had nothing to do with the cultish and unchecked sway of the Catholic Church during that period? Again, political reactionaries seek to turn back the clock on social progress and seek to do so by claiming responsibility for all social advancement to this point. The Evangelical movement as it exists today is all of about 50 years old. You people don't get to claim credit for whatever greatness this country has.

The founding fathers weren't evangelical, biblical literalists like you folks. To the extent that this nation is great, look to the liberal ideals of empowering the individual. Your theocratic ideas are as absurd as they are scary.

I'll refrain from using profanity so long as you stick to making reasonable arguments based on something other than your personal faith, or so long as you can manage to avoid outright insult. If you can't, the gloves come off...

[Quote Fairy]

Just some food for thought

"The Bible is a book. It's a good book. But it's not the Only book."
From the play Inherit the Wind by Jerome Lawrence and Robert E. Lee

"When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow."
-Anais Nin

This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness.
-The Dalai Lama

In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing.
-From Mark Twain's Autobiography

*vanishes back into the internet*